incredible_hulk_vol_1_180 Incredible_Hulk_Vol_1_181

Skott: Incredible Hulk #180. This book has some pro’s and cons. Pro, it’s the first appearance of a character named Wolverine. It’s a “cliffhanger cameo” in the largest panel of the last page. Cons, It’s just one panel. Wolverine doesn’t appear on the cover. The market has already chosen IH#181 and I just don’t see the market correcting itself regardless if it should or not. Still, at the end of the day it’s the first time Wolverine ever appears.

Incredible Hulk #181. Pros. This issue has everything and it’s easy to see why collectors have gravitated to it. Wolverine on the cover and in action no less. The story is called “And Now… The Wolverine”. Wolverine fighting everybody inside. It’s a full appearance, not a cameo. Cons. IH#181 is not Wolverine's first appearance.

Topher: Skot I agree with your assessment of this long-standing argument. Revising history to correct ancient misconceptions and errors is not an easy task in this market. Some of us have discussed the reasons why ad-nauseum so I won’t revisit those points. I will say this though, when we put aside the interest of investors and look at facts, IH 180 is clearly the first appearance of Wolverine. What you refer to accurately describes the cover effect and it has happened to other popular characters like Archangel and Cable. 181 is the more valuable book for all the pros you mention but that doesn’t mean it’s a first appearance.

Skot how do you feel about books like DD 115, Marvel Premiere 19 and Thor 229? They all contain ads which publish the cover to IH 181 prior to 181’s release? And what of that Foom issue? At the very least it contains a Wolverine prototype amongst other blatant steals by Marvel.

Skot: Should an ad that is the same across multiple books count? I don’t know about that. Maybe if it was one ad in one magazine or comic, That would be one thing, like Malibu Sun as an example.

There’s definitely a market for single types of ads or appearances. Like in Spawn’s case. To be honest, I almost think that type of stuff deserves its own classification. Sadly the real issue comes down to bragging rights and money.

I agree, Wolverine's first appearance is Incredible Hulk 180. He’s right there. It’s one panel and that’s a cameo. All the books you mentioned pertaining to Wolverine and are ads … if it was only one book, sure. But across multiple books running the same ad, I doubt it’ll catch on.

We live in a time where information flows like never before. There’s no reason not to break all this stuff down into categories and have the comic appearance classified: “first appearance in comic, cameo”, “first ad appearance” and “first full appearance in comic”, stuff like that. Why not and just let the market decide?

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    In the literal sense a cameo is the first appearance but in the comic world first appearance is synonymous with first full appearance. #181 is the book to go with. The ad books are for the Wolverine completionists out there and FOOM #2 has a sweet Steranko cover with all things Wolverine being speculation.

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    completely agree that 180 is a cameo and 181 is the first full appearance. I don’t count the ads for some of the reasons you guys discussed, there’s no way classification for ad appearances right now so they basically don’t count other than singular ad appearances. CGC and CBCS as the only two major players in the grading market need to put there heads together and put some of these discussions to rest.

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    The world would be a better place if the 1st apperance no matter WHAT, WHERE, HOW etc. was the 1st time the character was seen. Then the 1st Full appearance would be like 181.

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    These “agree to disagrees” (while a great idea) have thus far all been exercises in dead horse beating. (Hulk 180 vs 181, Action 23 vs Superman 4, come on guys lol).

    I personally am more interested in discussions that aren’t completely lost causes and that weren’t already definitively settled decades ago, like first Riri, first new Superboy, first real “Spider-Gwen”, “Gwen-pool”, et al, first Kamala/new Ms. Marvel, etc.

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    This issue seems much more cut and dried than say the first “appearance” of Doomsday which is only his hand but considered by many not to be a cameo. Would be interested to learn your opinions on this issue.

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    classification of 1st appearances does need to change, it can get confusing between first mention, shadow appearance, ad, one panel faceless cameo, one panel cameo teaser, appearance as a baby, wrong color outfit first cameo, prototype, preview, preview in solicitation, 1st full. The one that always gets me are previews (not previews in comic solicitations) This would be multiple pages in a book with a cover price. Preacher, Walking Dead, Izombie all have multiple page previews that went out before their #1s but Capes and Agents go for cheap and Walking Dead #1 can be in the thousands.

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    Also need to add 1st printed material appearance (for children’s books, coloring books, Magazines) a couple play boy magazines have some characters 1st appearances, children books like Batman Almost Got Im and the Batman animated coloring book can be categorized as previous Harley appearances before BA #12.

  • Topher

    The real argument here should be about 180 vs 181. The ad books like Thor 223 came out after 180. In my opinion the only reason 180 is not considered the first is because Wolverine is on the cover to 181 and back then there was no internet to hammer out the truth. 181 was erroneously considered his first and it takes a lot to change history so we are stuck with 181.

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    If anyone can change the Wolverine first appearance to 180 instead of 181, they should be working on how to fix the national debt.
    It’s 181. It’s been 181 since I was a little kid and that was over 30 years ago or as long as I have been buying and selling comics. Many influential dealers and collectors over the years have made this determination along with Overstreet, which was the end all be all for prices on comics before the Internet.
    You can attempt to change people’s opinions on first appearances or cameos or ads, but honestly it’s been attempted for decades now. 181 is the book to own and always will be.
    180 is still a very good book for a cameo and relatively cheap in all forms.
    The wheel of comic definitions doesn’t need to be reinvented.
    180 – cameo
    181 – first full appearance
    182 – get back in your cage cameo


  • Ben Steiniger

    Great job guys, I love the premise–and I am sure that topics in the future will spark even more anger!

    The poll question is a tough one. I don’t believe 180 will ever be more than 181, but it might be the better investment today as it probably has more room to grow.

  • AZBarbarian

    Ever notice it is the same one or two people always making this stupid argument?

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