agreeIn this section we'll pit two books that are often seen as first apps against each other in order to see what you, the collector, actually thinks. We don't mean to change comic history, we just want to know your opinion. Why are some of these comics first apps while others are labeled as cameos? Does everybody agree? We're betting on “No”!!! This week, a classic: Darkseid!!!

jo134-01 foreverpeople01p01

Skot: Superman’s Pal Jimmy Olsen #134 is the first time Darkseid appears. He’s called by name in the narration. It’s a very tiny panel. He’s not colored properly. Not on the cover. Not a major part of the story yet and only appears on a video screen. In Forever People #1, he's colored correctly, appears on 4 pages across 7 panels. He is there in the flesh and has a conversation with Superman. So it's a full appearance. Cons: It’s not the first time we see the character plus he’s not on the cover.

jo134Panels from Jimmy Olsen #134 foreverpeople01p26Panels from Forever People #1

Topher: These arguments are really about what’s more important to the buyer/seller. JO 134 is clearly his first appearance. A first appearance is simply the debut of a character or object. Darkseid’s appearance may not be all that impressive but it’s still a first. A full appearance is apparently more coveted by most collectors. People want to experience the character interacting with other characters and that is understandable and they want to see the character in all his/her glory! I must stress though, when we are talking about a first appearance the best way to determine when it happens is to say, he/she/it was first seen in a particular publication. Whether that be in one panel or six panels should not matter. Firsts can happen in shadow or via cameo. As much as I hate to say it, even a hand counts though I wouldn’t put much value on it, whether if be a key or not.

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    I’m with Topher. The first time the public is introduced to a character in a story is the first appearance. Doesn’t matter how many panels or full body or shadow or unnamed or flashback or dream or onscreen. First is first. The market can do what it wants. That’s my rule.

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    Nice breakdown. One that’s always bugged me is Taskmaster in Avengers #195 and #196. In #195 we see a full body splash of TM, but 196 has him on the cover. With Darkseid he’s never on the cover. I wonder how folks would feel if #134 was as is, but Forever People had him on the cover. I say first appearance is first appearance.

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      The first appearance of Taskmaster is obviously 195. Full page splash, and named. “Cameos” annoy the Hell out of me. 😉 A first appearance is a first appearance. (And no, ads and preview books that aren’t original content do not count IMHO.)

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        I agree, but the more sought after book is #196 because of the cover. CGC had a lot to do with that.

      • Skot Whitman

        People have a right to know if they are buying one panel, one page or a full comic when it comes to appearances. The cameo can be worth more, fine.

        People have a right to know what they are plunking down money for. Anything else is deceptive.

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          Who’s job is it to educate people on what they are buying?

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          I think that’s just crazy. I mean, if a character is in multiple panels in a book his appearance is “more” first appearance-y? LOL I mean, it’s a first appearance. One panel, the entire issue, a cover, not a cover, if he/she shows up and has never shown up before, it’s a first appearance. Adding “cameo” to the reasoning is just silly, if you ask me. He/she’s not in it but in one panel? So it’s a cameo. But has this character ever appeared anywhere else before? If not, then it’s ALSO their first appearance. Just because a cover is cooler, or there are more character panels does not make a second appearance issue a “first appearance.” It just means that character gets more screen time with their second appearance. 🙂

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    I believe that Jimmy Olsen #134 is the definition of a cameo appearance.

    Whereas FP #1 is the first full app.

    It’s the exact same thing as ASM #360 vs #361

    #360 has a full body shot of Carnage and dialogue but it is still considered a cameo.
    #361 is obviously a full 1st including a cover App which helps settle that.

    Many similar examples exist. Hulk 180 vs 181 is another prime example.

    At the end, it’s the market that determines what’s what.

    I’m pretty sure SPJO #134 has a lower print run than FP #1 (being a #1 also means more orders thus higher print run) so the SPJO #134 commands more money.

    I have both issues so I couldn’t care less.

    But in Darkseid’s case… I would invest in both, but to me FP #1 is a first full!

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    No love for New Gods 1? Always preferred that ine personally. I’m not one to argue with the market though. That’s just pissin’ in the wind. Good article!

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    I believe the first time a character shows up in some form, be it full page or “cameo”, and it is within the context of the story, that is his first appearance. Letter columns & preview pages in fan magazines are questionable to me.
    As for Darkseid, Jimmy Olsen 134 is his first. Sure it’s tiny, but it’s there. He’s recognizable, he interacts with another main character (Morgan Edge, while no Jimmy Olsen, was still a major part of the supporting cast of Superman during that period). And he is mentioned name…twice.

    And why the emphasis on cover appearance? Many, many characters first appearances did not have them on cover.

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    To bad no one follows the first app rule of whenever they show up period. It’s all made up bs.

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    Jimmy Olsen 135 !!!!!!! Which comic makes you feel like you’ve just witnessed the birth of a truely great new character? Anything less than that is not worth a fans time.

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    I am fully in the camp of first appearance is a first appearance, be it one panel, no dialogue, shadowy figure etc. However, as many have eloquently stated here, the market wants what the market wants, not much you can do about it! So I’m with Topher, JO #134 is first Darkseid as far as I am concerned.

    I also say ASM #1 vol. 3 is first Cindy Moon/Silk, but the market says it’s #4, despite seeing Cindy bitten by the radioactive spider. THAT is a pretty significant event, essentially her origin story. But as Davidone says, that’s just pissin’ in the wind!

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    Jimmy Olsen #134 …it’s his actual first appearance. It may not be the best first appearance issue, but it is nonetheless.

    As for Forever People #1 …it’s not even that much of a full appearance. Also, Darkseid appeared a number of other times between SPJO 134 and FP 1’s publication, so it’s not like a Hulk 180/181 or ASM 360/361 kind of thing. I just don’t think it adds enough to be held as the definitive Darkseid appearance. Really, it’s on the same level as New Gods #2 to me (his first cover appearance).

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    Also, in regards to what fans want, I don’t think the entertainment value of the comic should have an impact on the first-appearance status.

    Just because one issue is more entertaining than the other, it doesn’t mean that it is more of a first appearance when the character has literally already appeared in multiple comics.

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    Great aticle and I Love the content…. However you guys do know that SPJO #135 came out before FP 1 right?

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    I love how some people call ASM 360 the first appearance of carnage and argue if its a cameo or what… yet he actually appears in a panel in ASM 359. He is in his jail cell still, a guard comes by and says “Kasady” who are you talking to and he says ” come closer WE will show you” and we see the reddish carnage symbiote coming from him. Which means, he has become carnage. Not named, suit not shown besides the ” liquid” suit. Then on the letters page of this issue, they show a half page splash of the cover for ASM 361.

    We knew something was going to happen with kasady in ASM 344 with the symbiote about to drip on him.

    We knew it had joined with Kasady in ASM 359 and the Symbiote was red, and since he was talking in 4 panels, its a speaking appearance. Then at the end, albeit in the letters page , they show us what he looks like.

    He names himself Carnage in # 360 on a full page splash

    He has a full appearance and first cover appearance in 361.

    I read and witnessed the birth and introduction of Carnage and it was in ASM 359. The fact I didn’t know his name yet does not matter.

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